David: Welcome to the Manitoba Business Podcast featuring interviews with business leaders and entrepreneurs based right here in Manitoba. I’m David Noël-Romas.
If you’re anything like me, you enjoy eating food. Winnipeg has a fantastic restaurant scene and one of the aspects of it that I appreciate is that it’s not a pretentious scene. There’s a good level of respect between guys who might be slinging burgers from the back of a food truck and the ones who are providing a really refined dining experience.
Today’s guest is right in the middle of that spectrum and very well regarded in Winnipeg’s restaurant community for his operational smarts. He runs a local chain of restaurants whose name you will almost certainly recognize and whose food you’ve probably already enjoyed. At any rate, I hope you enjoy this interview. If you do, please tell your friends about the show. The show is available on all of your favorite podcast platforms including iTunes and a transcript of every episode is also available on our website at www.manitobabusinesspodcast.com. Now without further ado, here is Grant Anderson.
All right. Well, Grant, thank you so much for taking the time.
Grant: You’re very welcome. Thank you for coming.
David: Let’s start with having you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Grant: Well, my name is Grant Anderson. I have been in the restaurant business for the past 35 years, and I got my start working for Garbonzo’s Pizza back in 1982, back when there were only the two locations with Pembina Highway and Downtown.
At that time I started out, I was a dishwasher and busser of tables, and fell in love with the restaurant business mostly because of the people involved. I found them to be extremely charismatic and caring. The rules were a little bit different back in those days. I used to work from 5 o’clock in the evening until about 4 o’clock in the morning, and it was my way of earning money for the things that I wanted. And yeah, it was something that was a great fit for me. As I’ve made my way through, I’ve had a good run at things. I’ve been an owner, I’ve been a franchisee, I’ve been a franchisor, and today I’m the operating partner for Stella’s. I can say it’s been a good run.
David: Very cool, very cool. So when you started and you were bussing tables and washing dishes, what was…what else…like were you in school at the time?
Grant: Oh no, absolutely. I was in high school at the time and was looking for a way of, like I said, earning those dollars for first vehicle, for new bikes, for going out, for whatever, whatever you sort of fancied. I will say the one thing about the restaurant business that even at that time was very lucrative in terms of the tips. And so it was something that I felt that I had more than enough to take care of my own personal needs. I actually went for a stretch of almost six months without ever cashing a paycheck even at that time. But in those days when I started, minimum wage for people under the age of 18 was $3.45 per hour, so it was a little bit different than it is today for sure.
But yeah, it was something that I utilized as a launching point for my life. Although I enrolled in university, I never really pursued it because I got caught up. Sometimes, people talk about, you choose the restaurant business or did the restaurant business choose you. I think the restaurant business chose me in a lot of ways. It’s one of those things where I really felt the gravitational pull and love the lifestyle associated with it. I didn’t mind the late evenings. I didn’t mind the long, hard hours. It was just something where I felt I was always advancing and progressing.
As I’ve made my way through my career, I’ve had the fortune of having worked with and alongside and worked for some really great people. I’ve had excellent mentors, as I’ve come through recognizing the fact that Brad Houghton and Darin Amies with Moxie’s were two of the guys that really channeled my energy in a very positive way. I felt that although they were very different, they both had major impacts on me and the rest of my career.
David: Dude, were you an employee there for a while? Is that how you met them?
Grant: Actually, I started with Moxie’s when the Regent Avenue location first opened. I was brought on as a server/supervisor and within a year, I was a general manager and partner. So it was a very, very good fit for me and that was something where…I feel that at that time that, like I said, Brad was instrumental in formulating my ideas about what the restaurant business could and should be, and allowing me the room to test my strength, test my knowledge, and become a much better manager of people. A very principled guy, has a huge passion for the restaurant business. He likes the people aspect the most, I think, and that’s what really imprinted on me. He liked to have fun and felt the restaurant business could be fun. I think it’s still the same for him today, to be honest.
David: Cool. I want to…I’m torn because I wanna jump forward and jump backwards. Well, maybe let’s stay chronological. Give me maybe a time…I’m curious of what the progression looked like from washing dishes to operating partner at Stella’s. What’s the in-between pieces? How long did you kind of spend in each stage, etc.?
Grant: Well, with Garbonzo’s, I had made my way up from the time of being a busser into being a host. And then by the time I was 17, I had started serving and was using that to actually pay for my way through school as well as pay for rent and that. So I was with Garbonzo’s, I think, for a span of about four years in total and during that time, I went off to open the Henderson Highway location, which is…it seems so long ago now, that building’s had so many transitions since then. But it was the first location for Garbonzo’s that actually had a lounge and so that was an interesting sort of foray into a new line of experience for me as well, and that was the component of the bar sales and dealing with bartenders and mixed drinks. It was a different type of experience from what Garbonzo’s was.
So four years go by, I end up working for Times Nightclub at the time on the corner of Hargrave and Portage, back when the Eaton’s Building was still there across the street, and was there for about 15, 16 months. And I took a position actually opening up the Diamond Club on McPhillips, working for Ledohowskis. And I ended up working for what was then the Hospitality Corporation of Manitoba which is now Canad Inns, ended up working there for probably about four years as well, moving my way up from being a bartender at Diamond Club to the club manager at Club Taboo, taking back across to Night Moves and Club Soda. And then from there, I went off to Pembina Highway to open up the Palladium. So I did a bit of a foray into the nightclub industry, so by the time I was 25…I turned 25 working at the Palladium, and met who is today my wife after 24 years.
Just the lifestyle, everything associated with the bar business wasn’t extremely conducive to having a sort of normal life as it were. So there was a job posting that came up and it was for a company that was based out of Calgary. I ended up going to the actual interview and found out it was for a position as a manager at Chuck E. Cheese. So I took on a role after a long interview process. I was hired on a Friday and off to Dallas/Fort Worth on Tuesday, I think, some five days later for three weeks of training and then a weekend in California of training. So I had to pack my bags and go and come back, and was the general manager at Chuck E. Cheese for two years.
And it was a great experience overall. It was the first time that I got a chance to actually work in an environment that was much larger than anything that you typically experience in Winnipeg. At that time, the chain business hadn’t really been as formidable as it is today. So when you end up going down to Dallas and…I remember we were in Irving at the actual head office of Chuck E. Cheese, and I just couldn’t get over that there was 475 locations. It was just something that was completely overwhelming to me. And just the scale of this entity was almost overwhelming but certainly impressive. But that’s where I learned a lot about budgets, and fiscal responsibility, and how to manage a restaurant business more so like a business and less like a touchy-feely sort of experience.
So everything was laid out on paperwork and it’s where I first learned the value of…Well, I should actually credit Garbonzo’s for that, doing inventory with a calculator, a piece of foolscap, and a pencil. There wasn’t really the same level of programs and everything else that’s available today, so most of the work was done on paper. And with Chuck E. Cheese, it was very much the same way as well, was that paper, and pencil, and calculator was all you needed to run a profitable business. That’s really what you need to do, is to watch the numbers and to make sure that everything was in line.
So from there is when I ended up actually being with Moxie’s and that’s when I came on board to open up the…Like I said, I was at the Regent Avenue location when it first opened. I had gone in for an interview with Brad Houghton in an interview that we ended up sitting and talking for probably about two hours, just talking about the restaurant business. And I guess that I was just so impressed with that first location at St. Vital and what was…you could see the opportunity and what the possibility was going to be, but was most impressive was these two young operators that were, like I said, just so principled and so value driven in everything that they did.
So I was enamored and I was definitely very flattered when they started to want to champion me. And that was, like I said, was a great relationship for me. It’s something that I’ll carry forward for the rest of my life in appreciation and definitely in recognition.
David: Yeah, very cool, very cool. And so then after Moxie’s, was that right into Stella’s or [crosstalk 00:13:24]
Grant: No, it actually went off to…with Moxie’s sudden expansion beyond the Winnipeg market became inevitable, so that’s when we went into Ontario. I went to Ottawa and I went to Kingston. Those were my next points of involvement with Moxie’s. It was a Brad and Darin partnership with myself. And then, things changed and times changed. I think there was a lot of things that I was going through that were creating difficulties. In recognition of where they were at with the company and what was happening, there was a parting of ways that was not only inevitable but it was…I recognize it for what it is today and it was something that was the right call, I think, for all of us.
So when that happened, I ended up taking a position as a director of operations for a company in Ottawa called Fat Albert’s and Ralph’s, independent operator, at the time had I think 14 different franchise locations and 2 of his own that I was operating for him. But it was a short-lived experience. I knew after probably six months that I wouldn’t be there much longer than a year, year and a half. So I took a long vacation to think about it, came back, and just said it was time for me to move on, resign, and ended up being, through a chance acquaintance with where my wife was working at the time, becoming partners with another gentleman to purchase Mexicali Rosa’s.
So at the time that we had Mexicali Rosa’s, when we first took over, there was 22 locations. We knocked that down to 19 by losing 3 of the locations in Quebec because they just weren’t really fitting within the framework of what we wanted to accomplish. The franchisee was a little bit difficult to deal with, sort of wanted to go to the beat of his own drum, and so we pulled it all back. And then from there, from the 19 locations over the span of the next 3 years, took it up to 28 locations with 2 more on the books that were ready to go. And I decided to sell to my partner at the time, it just wasn’t a great fit anymore. I think that partnerships can be difficult in that regard, especially when there’s other family members involved. If you’ve got spouses, or kids, or parents involved, stuff like that, that can be a challenge for sure.
My strength was obviously all in operations and I felt that we were moving in the right direction. I was selling franchises running across all of Ontario. I put 98,000 kilometers on my vehicle in a year, just driving around and trying to handle things as best as possible. And yeah, when I left, it was time for me to leave as well. There was a feeling on their part that they could handle things without me and I said, “That’s great. Then you should. That would be fantastic.”
And from there, a short foray into a partnership with a gentleman in Ottawa. We owned a Boston Pizza together. And this is coming back to probably around late 2007 when my wife said that she wanted to be home, and home for her is Winnipeg. This is where she wanted to be, aging parents, not really seeing nieces and nephews as her cousins and her brother was having kids. It wasn’t so much that she didn’t get a chance to come for the major events. It’s the day to day. It’s the Sundays, the Sunday dinners that you miss that are a challenge. So I agreed. We sold everything, house and business, and moved back to Winnipeg. I took a position with Northern Meats when I got back as a sales representative for them.
It’s one of those things about life that’s just so miraculous, it’s happenstance. Timing, whatever way you wanna call it, is it fate? I don’t know, but happenstance. I was at Stella’s. I’m just doing a sales call and I was speaking to the two gentlemen that were actually working as operators for Tore and Lehla. And Tore asked to…he had been sitting over in the corner and had asked…it was in this office actually. And he was sitting over the corner and through my questions that I was asking of the two gentlemen, he figured out that I had a lot of experience in the restaurant business, had expressed that he had gone through a few different consultants. Being a pilot and having this business to run, felt that he needed a little bit of help.
So I agreed to come on board as a consultant. So I started consulting on October 8th of 2008. And within four months, sometime around January, Tore expressed that he had interest in bringing me on full time and if I would be interested. And I said, “Well…” The problem is that I would never want to abandon a job without staying there at least a year to see what impact I had been able to actually make on that business and if I had jumped ship too early, I think I would have…not regretted it but I would have always carried that forward like, “Did I give it a fair chance?” So I decided to stay on where I was for the full year and came on board here full time in January of 2010. And was brought on with the presumption and on the agreement that I would be an operating partner and that’s where I am today.
David: Very cool. Very, very cool. So let’s rewind a little bit then on the Stella’s end. What is the story of Stella’s? How long has Stella’s been around and how is that growing? How many locations were there when you came on and where are they at now, etc.?
Grant: Okay. Well, Stella started in December of 1999, and it was the brainchild of Tore and Lehla, and Tomas and Anneen, Tore and Tomas being brothers and their significant others, Lehla and Anneen. So as far as the story goes, they had a great amount of success based out of that first location on Osborne Street. In 2003, they decided to add a second location and that was the Grant Avenue location. Because of the layout of the space and everything, they decided to go with a different style of service there. It wasn’t going to be the counter service model. It was actually gonna be a full service dining room.
The brilliant part about Stella’s, and the challenging part about it is, is that everything is made from scratch. And so we’re trying to do baking, making sauces, soups, dressings, everything that is coming out of two different locations, there’s always gonna be a slight variance in the product. So in order to alleviate some of those pressures of consistency, they decided to find a central location where they could do the baking and produce all of these items that were going out to the stores. So Stella’s started with a commissary model basically back in 2004, 2005, somewhere in there. At that time, the commissary was based out of the back of the Sherbrook Building, which is where we are now, and the front half was left undeveloped. It had been taken over from McKnight’s Pharmacy, and the space upstairs, where we are today, was actually operating as…at one time, it was a yoga studio and then it was also an online pharmacy. So the central commissary was operating out of the back and the product was being shipped to the two different locations.
As can happen in partnerships with family and everything else as expressed, there can be a separating of ways and that is what transpired with Stella’s. It was resolved that Tomas and Anneen would take the buyout and went off to do their own thing, and Tore and Lehla were left with the business. And from that point forward, it became, as expressed earlier, Tore’s involvement utilizing the people that he had to try and make things move forward as best as possible. So it stayed on with the two locations up until April of 2008, which was just prior to my involvement when the Sherbrook location, the front half of the building was opened as the restaurant. So we had the commissary in the back and then we had the restaurant out front. So when I first came on, it was the three different locations, Osborne, Kenaston & Grant, and the Sherbrook location.
During the time that I was consulting, there was a location that was added. It was a subsidiary, sort of secondary concept called Edna’s Café, and it was brought on at the University of Manitoba on Innovation Drive. It was a very, very small location. And it was there meant to service the actual business park and that was really about it. It was only open from 7:00 in the morning until 3:00 in the afternoon, and was operated by Stella’s. The original agreement actually called for that location and as it was actually owned by the University of Manitoba and Stella’s was the consultant, as it were, to operate there. But then when the university wanted out of it, we took it over as Stella’s but we kept it under the Edna’s Café brand just because it didn’t really feel much like a Stella’s overall. So in January 2010 when I came on full time, those were the locations that were involved.
David: I see, cool. And since then, I know there is the one on Provencher and there’s the one at the airport. Is there another one that I’m missing?
Grant: Well, okay, so we closed the Edna’s location in 2015 and then we’ve opened on Pembina Highway.
David: Oh right, that’s…yeah.
Grant: So with the locations that stand today is you’ve got Osborne is still in existence, Kenaston is still in existence. Sherbrook has undergone a major transformation due partially to a fire but that was really circumstance and timing. That had nothing to do with the fire. The renovations were gonna be done anyways. We’ve got the Portage Avenue location right beside the UW and Buhler Building. And then, we’ve got the CCFM location, the airport location, and Pembina Highway.
But we’ve also moved the commissary now which has taken up new residence on Waverley. So at 1100 Waverley, we’ve got a 7,500 square foot essentially kitchen and warehouse where we do all of that centralized cooking. So that handles the savory part of it and we still have the bakery right next door to the restaurant on Sherbrook. It’s at 110 Sherbrook. And that’s where we do all of the baking which gets shipped out to the stores as well.
David: Very cool. So you’ve seen a lot of growth in your time here.
Grant: And developed a complete catering division as well.
David: Wow. Very cool. What would you say were sort of the main challenges that you encountered when you came on?
Grant: Much like most independent businesses, probably the biggest challenge overall was the lack of paperwork, the lack of structure. Someone told me a long time ago that if it’s not on paper, it doesn’t exist. And it’s something that’s resided with me ever since I heard it because it was just so brilliant. I think lawyers have actually prescribed to this idea the best. But I feel that there was the lack of…all the right things were being done, they just weren’t qualified as being done or that there was an actual way to do it. When I first started consulting, the first question I asked Tore…because he asked me if I could meet him on the Monday and I came by and I just started to ask questions. And the first question I asked was one that he was struggling to really come up with a reasonable answer for, was the one that we started with and I said that’s where we need to start, was what makes Stella’s successful.
I have a longstanding belief that too often in business, people focus on all the things that are going wrong and not enough time trying to identify the things that are going right. They’ll try to worry about the customer they don’t have instead of the customer that they do. They’ll focus on what everybody else is doing instead of what they’re doing really, really well.
And so we really started there and that was just trying to qualify what Stella’s was doing right and then being able to qualify that success on paper and just say, “Well, if we’re going to try to replicate this success, we need to have a recipe for it and that recipe for success needs to be on paper, so that we’re not reinventing it all the time, that we’re just really sticking to an actual game plan.”
David: Was it there was already an intent to branch out, to expand before you came on or was that something that you kind of spearheaded?
Grant: I think that there were always feelings prior to me for sure that expansion was possible. I would say that I was probably more so of a catalyst for that.
David: Okay, you facilitated it. If it wasn’t for the systems that you got into place, it would have been…
Grant: I think it would have struggled a while. I’m not saying that I did anything unique. It’s just timing, being there in the right place with the right expertise, the right knowledge to make things happen. Did I do it better than anybody else? No, but I get it. And that’s really what it comes down to. I’m sure that there’s lots of people that could have done it as well or better. But what we’ve done today has been to facilitate the growth of our brand and really identify what that brand is.
What I’ve said along the way to everybody is that if we’re… The biggest challenge that we’re gonna face is living up to the expectations of what people perceive us to be, because that’s always the struggle. That’s the hard part. If people perceive that you’re great value, well, you have to provide value in everything that you do. If people perceive that you’re local and fresh and organic, then that’s what you have to be. I think that’s what we’ve really been able to do over the past seven years, seven and a half years, is really take the things that we do well, do more of them, and do them better than ever before.
So when we say that we’re going to be concerned for environmental impact on the products that we use, well, what does that mean and really sort of qualifying that in our daily operations, how we’re going to handle things. So we’ve got, you know, composting programs. We soak all of our own lentils and chickpeas and beans because transporting dry goods is much cheaper than transporting products in cans that are…basically you’re moving water across the country. And so we utilize whatever means possible and whatever…possible sometimes can be restrictive but we do our very, very best to make sure that we use the idea that you do things the right way, and the right way means that you are concerned for environmental impact. You do things from scratch whatever way possible. You utilize an idea that homemade is something that’s possible even when you’ve got eight locations, a bakery, and catering to worry about.
And that has been…it’s been a bit of a challenge for sure but in a long way coming back to that same point is the biggest challenge is being really sort of qualifying what we do right and trying to do more of it day in and day out.
David: What would be the answer to that question today? What makes Stella successful?
Grant: Our people, hands down. When you take a look around at how much effort goes into enticing the right people to work with us and how much effort goes into training those individuals and keeping them on board, our actual turnover rate is really quite low. And because we were fortunate in a sense that we’ve got something unique to offer, so people that get it, they really get it and they want to be involved. They want to stay on. They want to be a part of it.
So we’re nothing without them, absolutely nothing. I’m a guy that’s a solid 8 but I can recognize 10s, and I like to challenge myself by hiring really great 10s around me and that’s what I do. It’s been a great ride in that sense, is developing and building a team, making them find value in the ordinary, in the mundane. Because the restaurant business doesn’t change, it’s always the same. It’s just about taking care of people. It’s just about recognizing that a guest came to you with very simple needs and if you can capitalize on that, then great. But service is just about that, it’s just taking care of people.
David: Right. You mentioned earlier that you kind of, with the Chuck E. Cheese training and stuff, got really turned on to the numbers side of managing a restaurant. And restaurants are notoriously tricky for that, right? The margins are slim and you wanna make it work. Is there anything that…I realize this is probably an unfair question, but is there anything that you would say is like sort of…that you think of it as the key there? What is the one metric that’s the most important for a restaurant? What’s the one thing that you would look at in a restaurant’s books or like…I don’t even really know how to phrase the question but…
Grant: Well, It’s hard. It’s hard to say that there’s one thing. What I can say about the numbers in a business, a lot of people try to fix problems with revenues and revenues just don’t solve problems. They amplify whatever you’re doing right or whatever you’re doing wrong. That’s all that they do. If you’ve got a labor cost issue, revenues will just amplify that. They’ll just make it worse. If you’ve got really great labor costs, revenues will help that. So being principled in that regard and understanding that you can’t buy your way out of your problems, which a lot of…I shouldn’t say a lot…I never wanna speak in those terms, but there have been operators in the past, I’m sure there are today, that try to buy their way out of their problems. They’ve got a few cost issues, so they raise their prices. Unfortunately, that’s not really the best way to go because your guests will eventually reach that threshold where they just don’t find the value in going back to you anymore.
So I feel it’s important that operators fight the fight to do the right things for their guests, because guests will notice that. They will embrace that part of it. So if you’re having problems with labor costs, then you need to fight to get better people involved. You need to fight to find creative ways to reduce your exposure in that regard.
But even in saying so and I’m kind of coming back to a problem that we have in the business, is that a lot of people look at labor costs, and I’m trying to really change that culture today, that labor cost is an expense. Labor is not really an expense. It’s always an investment. So rather than looking at labor cost as a GL code that just has a dollar amount attached to it, you have to really look at it more so like an investment. And that’s something that once again I can credit back to all the great people I’ve had to work with, is taking on this idea that if you’re going to have a set amount of dollars to work with every day, make sure that it’s being invested wisely and it’s going to the right people for the right reasons and with the right expectation of return on that. Because labor cost keeps on going up and up and up. I wouldn’t want to get into a conversation about minimum wage and impacts on the business but at the same time, I think we have the right recipe for success if we invest wisely into our people. So is there one specific thing? No, there’s multiple different things that you can do to impact your business in a positive way, but so long as you’re looking at labor costs strictly as a line item, I think you’re going down the wrong path.
David: Right, interesting. What do you see as the biggest opportunities for Stella’s in the next few years?
Grant: I think more of the same, very reserved and conservative growth. We will likely add a couple more locations but only under the right situations, the right opportunities. We don’t try to force growth at all and we’d like to allow for it to happen pretty organically and because we’ve got the right people pushing us to do so. I think that we will continue to foster our own skills and our own people to become better, and that will allow us to look at new opportunities.
We will at some juncture probably look outside of Winnipeg. We get that question a lot, like “When are you coming to Saskatoon? When are you coming to Calgary? You would do so well in Ottawa.” There’s really a lot to consider in that and I don’t mean to say that other companies don’t face challenges with expansion in that regard, but considering the infrastructure spend that we need to happen and the expertise that needs to go along with…
David: Well, I suppose you’re considering the commissary model, I assume, basically that part needs to be in whatever city you’d want to expand.
Grant: And the bakery, absolutely, keeping in mind that we roll every croissant by hand. We have nine different artisan breads that we do, as well as all of the pan breads and every single dessert and pastry, and everything that…laminated doughs…that go into just operating the bakery every single day. So the capital investment as well as the expertise and, to your point, the commissary model, makes it an elevated challenge because there’s an economy of scale that needs to be attained very, very quickly in order to justify those spends. So you’re not just going into a market and testing a store. You’re going into a market to test a commissary, a bakery, a catering division, and four locations pretty much right out of the gates.
So that is something that I consider to be a little bit daunting because I don’t know if it involves…how much it would involve even on my own part to have to go out there and set it up and for how long. Do I have to be gone, for two years? I really don’t know what that ends up being.
David: Right, fair point. Are you a reader at all? Are there any books that you would recommend?
Grant: I read a lot when I was a lot younger. Stephen Covey’s books and The Wealthy Barber, David Chilton’s, and a lot of those. One that I actually just read as of late though was Finders & Keepers. And it’s about the changing consumer and taking a look at the differences between the…I actually hate the term “millennials” but that framework, that consumer versus what were traditional purchasers in the past. Whereas in 1965, people purchased a lot based off of value and quantity, today a lot of people really source out quality and are willing to pay the price that’s attached to that. They like the story to things. That’s the one thing that came through the book, on a number of different occasions is this idea that the consumer today, the finders, they like the story behind things. And they completely reject fake authenticity. They really have a bitter disdain for people that try to fake their way through being authentic or being unique. So they really do embrace the idea of a good story.
David: Interesting. Very helpful, Finders Keepers.
Grant: Finders & Keepers.
But I will say that there is a lot of connection for me in terms of our own people as well because, as expressed, is if we go all the way in on our people and this is where all of our value is being created, being able to connect with them in a meaningful way is very, very important for us. And knowing today…because people will talk about the generation today, “millennials” with a lot of very negative terms. But I think what it is, is that times change and you’re the one that has to evolve, not them. Evolution doesn’t go backwards. We’re the ones that have to change. And are there times when I sit back and say, “Why don’t they get it? How come they can’t work as hard as I had to, to get where I am today? Why don’t they understand the value?” And the truth is that they shouldn’t. They shouldn’t. They shouldn’t have to. Why should anybody have to work as hard as I did going back to 1982? Is there some sort of inherent value in that? Some would say yes and at times I find myself saying yes but for the most part, no. It’s me that has to evolve. It’s me that has to understand that I have to find new ways to get them to understand or to embrace the ideas. And that’s what we’re trying to do.
David: Interesting, very cool. Grant, I’ve gone a bit over time. I apologize. Thank you very much for taking the time.
Grant: No problem. Thank you very much.
David: That’s it. Thank you for listening to the Manitoba Business Podcast. Once again, this episode was brought to you by Black Chair Consulting. We use social media to help businesses sell more. If you wanna find out about Black Chair Consulting, go to www.blackchair.net. Thanks so much. Have a great day.